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On the centrality of argementation in human beliefs and societies.

i go line by line. speaker indenties should be apparent.

DA: Didn't you ever hear of "fight fire with fire".

LOKI: didn't you ever hear of "the tools for the job"? in this case, only the verification procedure can work. the short term fix employed by the corporate media is only effective in SHAPING opinion --- not EXPRESSING it --- and only when it is employed with persistence and little opposition. discourse is the ONLY solution to corporate-media entrenchment. the influence of money on policy corrupts democracy a priori. hence, since democracy is the best one-word description of the goals of the present movement, the present movement will undermine its own efforts if those efforts are centered around efforts to enter the media oligarchy.

DA: Believe the devils advocate when I say the tactics they use are used because they are the most effective. Why do you think they are the dominant force, the "power" you fight against? Directly because of thier tactics!

LOKI: you should join our discussion group, diablito. you seem to understand where we are coming from. THIS is the way the world works and THIS is wrong. it is wrong, most obviously, because the cards are stacked in favor of those who are already winning. i have seen the fifth horseman of the apocalypse and his name is dehumanization. as people's futures are traded in pursuance of returns on capital investment, the very people whose labor is responsible for those returns (at least in theory --- certainly not in our current over-inflated newly "democratized" con-game stock market in which the reproduction of the means of production is rarely of interest) are increasingly being made powerless against the negotiating power of capital-transparent international borders which allow for "negotiation factories" (built from the "profits" earned for the shareholder) to be opened in unorganized regions towards which a "production shift" can be threatened. people are increasingly becoming commodified. their beliefs increasingly guided by well-crafted propoganda (like the commercials for "the pharmeceutical industry" which were run by the cnn coverage --- apparently provided primary sponsorship by these drug cartels on wall street --- of the democratic national convention).

when you say something like "i say the tactics they use are used because they are the most effective" you have not uttered a complete sentence in context. the missing argument is the one which tells us what these "tactics" are "effective" at doing. the clear answers are:
keeping the state in power; and
ensuring the wealth of the financial elite. i'm not sure that's what we're trying to accomplish here.

DA: Weren't all the "changes" you mentioned made by people who WERE ALIVE. DEAD slaves don't do any work, DEAD women don't think about voting and last the devils advocate heard cremation is legal! Your points don't not hold fire (a little demon humor there...). Please try again. Th devils advocate thanks you.

LOKI: ok. i'm beggining to see that logic is tool in the reactionary arsenal which is being used in name only. lay out your argument, buddy. especially if you're going to be critical of the logic of others' argumentation. here you seem to entirely miss the point which is implicit in bethx's argumentation:

1) the powerful would like slavery and, in their eyes, the fewer voters the better so they will push for these situations (and analogues) in whatever ways they can;
2) maintaining the illusion of democratic governance requires the (implicit) consent of the populace;
3) the public --- because of their hearts --- would not let the government legalize slavery or remove the voting rights of women.

you do the math smart guy.

discuss much. discuss often. discuss diversely. THIS is the revolution.